that's true on civil rights as well. he's been unfairly criticized for being weak on civil rights. he was not as strong as he could havebeen, but he did ts poant. w >> let's talk, presidential historian, jon meacham, who has a book coming out after the election that's forthcoming. "thomas jefferson, t.j." ike, a good president? a ar great president? or a great president? think that he -- one of the things we haven't talked about on the domestic side is he ratified what franklin roosevelt and harry truman had done in that he could have created --n 1952, 3,it cle,think, and check me on this, evan, was such that if he had been really intent on rolling back the new deal and the fair deal, it would ve been a huge fight and would have divided the country even more. llnt essentially did for ronald reagan. >> reagan. >> which is shift the conversation slightly, but accept the basic -- he was burkian -- accept the basic reality of what he found. >> like what they fndrom ar at. evan, let me ask you the same question. great? near great? >> great. he had wisdom. he had common sense. he made go